EP.162/ LARRY KIM
Website Visitor ID Secrets: Boosting E-commerce Marketing Accuracy with Larry Kim
Mariah Parsons hosts a podcast episode with Larry Kim, founder of customers.ai, discussing the importance of accurate website visitor identification. Larry reveals that current data sources, often used by website visitor ID companies, are only 5-30% accurate, leading to significant issues like low conversion rates and spam complaints. He emphasizes the need for brands to test the accuracy of their data providers and suggests strategies to improve email deliverability and brand reputation. Larry also highlights the legal requirements for email marketing, such as clear identification and opt-out mechanisms, to maintain compliance and trust with customers.
EP. 162
LARRY KIM
Episode Timestamps:
Introduction to Retention Chronicles Podcast 0:00
Mariah Parsons introduces the podcast, Retention Chronicles, focused on customer retention strategies for e-commerce marketers.
She highlights the importance of post-purchase experience, noting that 84% of shoppers won't return if they have a bad shipping experience.
Mariah emphasizes the role of transactional shipping emails and SMS in turning them into powerful marketing tools.
She mentions Malomo as the podcast sponsor, which helps brands create branded order tracking pages to enhance customer experience and drive profits.
Introduction of Larry Kim and His Background 2:53
Mariah Parsons welcomes Larry Kim, founder and CEO of customers.ai, to the podcast.
Larry shares his background, including his previous role as the founder and CEO of WordStream, a pay-per-click advertising platform acquired by Gannett in 2018.
Larry attributes the growth of WordStream to search engine optimization, which brought in 3-4 million website visitors per month.
He discusses the challenges and opportunities in the website visitor identification industry, emphasizing the need for accurate data.
Challenges in Website Visitor Identification 4:10
Larry explains the limitations of current website visitor identification technologies, which rely on low-quality data sources like publisher data and co-registration network data.
He highlights the inaccuracy of these data sources, with accuracy rates ranging from 5% to 30%.
Larry describes the efforts of customers.ai to build a new identity graph for person-level identification, aiming for higher accuracy rates.
He shares the results of their study and case studies, which show significant improvements in data accuracy.
Impact of Inaccurate Data on Brands 19:28
Larry discusses the negative impact of inaccurate website visitor identification data on brands, including low conversion rates and spam complaints.
He explains how brands can test the accuracy of their data by comparing known website visitors with the data provided by ID providers.
Larry emphasizes the importance of using accurate data to avoid damaging brand reputation and email deliverability.
He suggests strategies for brands to improve their data accuracy and mitigate the negative effects of inaccurate data.
Legal and Ethical Considerations in Email Marketing 22:47
Mariah and Larry discuss the legal and ethical considerations of email marketing, including the CAN-SPAM Act and the need for clear opt-out mechanisms.
Larry explains the importance of transparency and disclosure in using marketing trackers and collecting data.
He suggests strategies for brands to comply with regulations and maintain good email deliverability.
Mariah highlights the role of transactional emails in maintaining customer trust and the importance of accurate data in these communications.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts 27:26
Mariah thanks Larry for sharing his insights and experiences on the podcast.
She encourages listeners to subscribe to the podcast and follow them on social media.
Mariah provides a final shout-out to Malomo, the podcast sponsor, and encourages brands to explore their order tracking platform.
The episode concludes with a reminder of the importance of accurate data and effective customer retention strategies in e-commerce.
TRANSCRIPT
This transcript was completed by an automated system, please forgive any grammatical errors.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
customer retention strategies, ecommerce marketers, Malomo, post purchase experience, transactional shipping emails, branded tracking, website visitor ID, data accuracy, email deliverability, spam complaints, first party data, brand safety, legal compliance, marketing trackers, customer loyalty.
SPEAKERS
Speaker 1, Larry Kim, Mariah Parsons
Mariah Parsons 00:00
Music. Hello and welcome to retention Chronicles, the customer retention podcast for E commerce marketers, I am your host and fellow ecom marketer, Mariah Parsons. Tune in as I speak with DTC founders and operators about strategy that works and strategy that doesn't of course, we are able to have these conversations because of our podcast sponsor, Malomo. I have seen 1000s of brand operators power their order tracking with Malomo to make every single message count. As a consumer, I personally have come to expect that brands have a phenomenal post purchase experience, or else I'm not really shopping with them again. And a lot of consumers are this way. 84% of shoppers won't return if they have a bad shipping experience. And it feels so important for E commerce brands to have a good pre purchase experience. You're trying to get that acquisition. Your customers are coming through the door. They're coming through your website, it is a very personalized experience. You have pop ups that are timed Well, you have customer testimonials that are easing fears. You have well timed car abandonment, emails, all of that stuff. And then you purchase with a brand, and sometimes there's no communication, and it leaves you wondering. It leaves you mad, maybe scared that you fell for a scam or something like that. And so I think it is such a smart decision to have your transactional shipping emails and SMS not just be about only business. Malomo helps turn them into a powerful marketing tool. What does that look like? It means you can cross sell other products on that branded order tracking page. You can put educational content on that page. So if you have something that consumers will have to learn how to use for the first time, you can put that there. If you have recipes that they could, you know, use your product for when they first get it. You can put that there, your social media, everything, frequently asked questions, whatever you want. You get the control back so that you're not sending your customers to a carrier tracking page, you're putting them right back on your website, and you're also keeping them informed about their order status while you do it. That's the beautiful thing about this platform, if you're ready to turn your order notifications into a marketing channel and join 1000s of E commerce brand operators in making their customers happier while also adding to your brand's profits. Visit go malomo.com that's G O M, a, l o m, o.com Hello everyone, and welcome back to retention Chronicles. Super excited for our episode here today. Larry, thank you for joining me. It's going to be a great, great show, and I am always so honored that people make the time to come on and just tell me about what they're focusing their time on. So let's start off with a quick intro. Tell our audience who you are and how you've gotten to sit in this seat today.
Larry Kim 02:55
Awesome. Thanks, Maria, and it's great to be here. My name is Larry Kim. I am the founder and CEO of customers.ai. We are on a mission to bring data quality and accuracy and transparency to the website visitor ID industry. Prior to this, I was also known as the founder and CEO of a word stream, which was a pay per click advertising platform used by over a million people and was acquired by Gannett in Gannett in 2018 for about almost $200 million if you
Mariah Parsons 03:27
had to say high level, how you grew your previous company to appoint 10s of 1000 what really was the thing that got you to have so many users on your platform? Can you narrow it down to like one thing, sure,
Larry Kim 03:39
I know the one thing it would be search engine optimization. I mean, this was over a decade ago, and it was easier to do that at the time, but at exit, the company was doing something like three to 4 million website visitors per month. So that's a lot of free trial. That's a lot. And you know that would, those three to 4 million would become like leads to follow up on, you know, that we could send to over 100 account execs to to run down. So it's, it's harder to do that now, because, and plus, I think I feel like search is kind of in the heyday of searches now, right now, I personally just use chat, GPT and stuff like that, but, but that was, that was the one big hack at the time? Yep,
Mariah Parsons 04:21
makes sense. I mean, it was, well, we'll call it newer than it is now, right? So that makes sense. But I think that's what a lot of people will still see with, like, AI, like language processors, right? Of like, you can get in on the heyday, then you'll see a big surge from it and all that stuff. So that totally makes sense. Okay, so tell us a little bit more in detail about customers. So tell us more about customers. Ai, give us, you know, a couple minutes of background, what made you kind of get into the space, and then what's really peaking your interest about why people should care about obviously identifying their website users. I think a lot of our audience will know why they should care, but it's always fun to hear what people say in response to that question.
Larry Kim 04:59
The story is that a couple years ago, we learned more about the technology, and it was very compelling. It was very exciting, and we had some proprietary data of our own, and we licensed various third party data and combined it into a product. And we thought it was really, really awesome. Initially, I thought it was like, I mean, this is visitor identification. Is like, what they're promising is spectacular. Get to know who is on your website before they fill out a form that's that's quite powerful. And there were signs that it was working, because we could see that, you know, we'd look at our list of customers that we were sorry, of emails that we're providing, and comparing that with with orders, and, you know, 1% or something would match up to orders, and that was promising. Would see revenue be, you know, they're, you know, these. It didn't quite add up completely like we're seeing like lower conversion rates. And what we would expect this is, like, low funnel. Like, these are people who've heard of you. They're supposed to be on your your website list. So, like, couldn't quite, couldn't quite figure out, like, why the conversion rate was was low, and also spam complaints and other secondary negative engagement was problematic. And so we, we just did a lot of work on this, and figured out that the underlying data sources that this particular industry uses to power these motions is garbage. It's mostly like advertising data and something called co registration network data, which, you know, there are use cases for this stuff. Like, maybe you could use it for Facebook advertising or something like this, but, but, like, it was not meant to be so pinpoint accurate down to, you know, an individual typically, what we found was that the accuracy rate for this kind of website visitor ID technology that's being used by every single vendor in the space is accurate to 5% on the low end, and the highest we've ever seen is Around 30% so meaning it's wrong 70 to 95% of the time, which is problematic if you care about your brand and your deliverability and stuff like this. So we've spent the last two years really trying to think through that problem and trying to do that difficult engineering of building like a new identity graph that is specifically designed for person level identification. And like, something that would have, like, nothing is 100% but like, could it be mostly right rather than mostly wrong? So like, 7080, 90% correct rather than 70 90% wrong? And that's sort of what we've been working on. And we released our study results and and case studies earlier last month, and it's, it's been quite an exciting ride. Yeah,
Mariah Parsons 07:46
awesome. That's great context. So this is one of the things that I as a marketer am not familiar in, and this is why it's fun for me to come on this podcast and have someone like you who's, you know, very, very much, an expert in trying to crack this code and make you know majority of website visitors accurate. So high level, can you explain how, like, I know you said, majority of the sources that other platforms who are trying to identify website visitors are using that data, and it's like, dirty or, quote, unquote wrong or whatever. So how do you start to get, like, the correct information, like, where do you pull from? Is No, is it like, if it's not ads, then where, where else are you pulling those emails from to try and match who website visitors are?
Larry Kim 08:30
So the place that this whole industry, including us, by the way, over two years ago, that's we were just using the same data as everyone else. We were using stuff like publisher data. So that's stuff like where somebody logs in to some some website, and there's, there's some identification that happens there, where you log into a website, they say, like, sign in for the free article, or something like that. And the the trick is that they then fingerprint your browser or your device characteristics of that device, and they'll associate that device with with the login that you just provided. This is notoriously, really low quality stuff. It's it's a throwaway email, so sometimes you'll just put in anything in there to get rid of the the pop up. So that's like one source of really, really bad data. Another one is CO registration networks. This could be like a payday loan, a payday loan site where, you know, it's just affiliate marketers trying to drive people to sign up for a payday loan, or something like this. And then once that form gets filled, it gets cookied, like 100 times, and then that data gets sent to all these like loan vendors and resold. And the problem with this data is that it's very susceptible to fraud, so like bots, all sorts of other junk and so I mean that that's kind of the genesis of the data that is being used to power these, these visitor identification use cases. I think that. The original use case for these, these, these data sources were to power advertising. So like, you know, you could, you know, get all the the the IDs for people you know, who are interested in maybe it was a cooking, a cooking website, or maybe it was a people who are interested in loans. You could kind of aggregate that and in aggregate, so like, if you had, you know, 10s of 1000s or hundreds of 1000s of these, or millions of these signals, then 20% accuracy is it kind of kind of works okay for, say, this display advertising, because at least you have some signal, rather than no signal to use. I don't think it was ever meant to power individual level like Person ID, and therein, that was, that was the crux of the discovery that we made. And in terms of how we how we fixed it, we, I mean, it's pretty difficult. We had to throw out the whole thing and basically start from scratch with new data sources, new signals, new algorithms, new identifiers and and build this whole thing from scratch. It's almost like becoming those next version of those data vendors that everyone else was buying stuff from. Okay,
Mariah Parsons 11:12
gotcha, that's that's very helpful context. So you brought with you today a report that you all have run on, kind of the, you know, like industry report of how we're doing with website visitor identification, just to tell us more about, you know, thought leader, like a thought leader like you in the space, what you're thinking about, what trends are catching your eye? You know, what brands in the Shopify space should look out for when they're trying to obviously acquire more customers, give those customers a great experience on their site. So let's go there now and have you kind of walk through your findings in that, in that report, because I think our audience will love that. Sure,
Larry Kim 11:50
sure. The punchline of this report is quite shocking. You know, you buy these, if you're a brand, you're buying this website visitor ID tech, which, it's pretty popular. I think it's hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue annually. But like as advertised, they're saying that they are providing you with accurate identify, identification of website visitors. Unfortunately, the reality of that is mixed. It's mostly it's not 100% wrong, but it's mostly wrong. 7080, 90, 95% wrong. You know, anywhere from five to 30% correct, is what we're seeing on average. And so I just think that that is, it's pretty crazy. Because if you, I mean, you guys, you know, identify yourself as the, you know, the logistics and,
Speaker 1 12:38
you know, order, what do you call it? Free tracking order or trended order tracking? Yeah, you
Larry Kim 12:44
have one job. You need to reliably convey the status of the orders. You know, imagine if you were sending out, like, phony updates about like it was delivered when it wasn't. Or, yeah,
Mariah Parsons 12:54
that would be quite problematic. Yeah, it needs to be very clean data. These
Larry Kim 12:58
website visitor ID companies, it's like they have one job. It's to identify the website visitor, you know, accurately. And they are failing to do this. You know, 90 times out of 20. And brands are being duped by, you know, it's, well, you know, I can explain it like they see revenue, which makes sense, because it's not all wrong. So you would expect some of these IDs to to convert to sales, but what they're, I think, like, the reason why it grows this much is because there's revenue. But what people aren't looking is just looking a level deeper and to see, like, well, you know, what is the collateral damage of this revenue? And like, how many bad emails did WE send emails to? Like, how, you know, what does this do for, you know, brand safety and also, you know, deliverability. But it also, it's also a missed revenue opportunity. Like, if you are happy with an ID provider, that's right, one out of 20 times, you know, imagine if it was like, right, you know, 14 or 15 times out of out of 20, you know, it just seems like there's, there's more value that could be extracted from this channel. So the idea, the report, you know, kind of went through a bunch of case studies of brands, and we outlined sort of a way for brands to do their own data tests. It's actually very, very easy, but people don't necessarily think about it. If I'm selling you leads to of your website visitors, the question becomes like, Well, how do I really know that? You know Joey jojo@yahoo.com really visited my my website? Like, how do I know? And it's actually not possible to know with full certainty. Like, you know who like, who are the people who really visit your website? But what you can do is you can do a test, and the test is to compare the guesses being provided by these website visitor identification products and compare it against a subset of traffic to your website where you know who that person already is. So I see So generally, most of your traffic to your site is anonymous, but there's going to be like five, 10% of the traffic where you actually do know who it is. It's going to be the customers. And what you can do is, if somebody purchases right at the second, then you have a high degree of certainty that it must be this person. And then what you can do is, then compare, just look back a few seconds to, like, you know, who did the different ID providers identify as being the customer, and saying, like, well, this person that it was said it was Jill, and this one said it was, you know, Johnny, or something like, when really it was Sally who bought this thing. So, like, you can. You can, like,
Mariah Parsons 15:42
deductive reasoning, basically, like, off the data you already have. Yes, it's
Larry Kim 15:45
like a sample you can. You can get a sense for the accuracy of this data by looking at kind of a known sample and then extrapolate to, like, well, if they were wrong, 90% on on the kind of the people that where we already knew who it was, it follows that, you know, they're probably 90% wrong on the on the people where we don't know who it is. That's how polling works. You don't actually, you know, call every voter in America to, you know, see who you're voting. You call 1000 of them or something, not saying that polling works 100% but it's better that, you know, it's plus minus, like, you know, 345, percent or something that you know, it's giving you some idea. So we provided that methodology, and we ran that kind of test on various brands, and just showing that all these they're just kind of a little fraudulent. All you know what's happening here. They're companies buying junk, weeds and passing it off as being like, your website visitors, and it's just a lot of crap. Unfortunately, we think we're better. We're like, we're even we're not saying that this is 100% like, they're saying that, like, this is, like, accurate. Oh, they don't tell you, like, it's wrong 90% I'm like, we're wrong, like, you know, 30 plus percent of the time, but the point is that at least we can give you the highlights on of what we believe it to be, and provide tools to allow vendors to make those assessments for
Mariah Parsons 17:11
themselves. So the report mostly was like a comparison against the platforms in the space, rather than like trends for brands to look out for then. So
Larry Kim 17:21
in terms of trends, I think that the I mean, there are important trends like the idea of brands making more of their first party data. So like that, to me, rings true. Part of your first party data collection includes your website visitors, and so understanding who those people are would would fit into that trend of making more of your first party data. The issue is that, you know it's you're not really making more of your first party data website visitors, if the data it's being enriched to is wrong 95% of the time. But I think that you could make an argument that that that you are making more of your first party data if, if you're enriching anonymous website visitors, first party website visitors to identities correctly, 70, 75% of the time. Okay, nothing is 100% but like, like, that's pretty, pretty good.
Mariah Parsons 18:13
Yeah. Okay, so say, say a brand. Because I now I want to get a little bit more tactical on like, advice for brands who are listening to this podcast of Okay, say that someone, a brand you know, has used use a platform where they found out, okay, like 95% of this, or 90% of this data has not been accurate, and we've been spamming people, and you know, like, it's tanked our email deliverability, and there's A lot of collateral for, like, brand reputation, or just really any of those, what is first of all like, Is there hope for that brand to recover? And what, where would they like first start out, and what would be like your recommendation there?
Larry Kim 18:53
Sure it's not, it's actually not too hard to recover. Or you just have to, like, cancel that subscription. The thing about a kind of email deliverability issues is it's not like crashing your car and getting, like a demerit, where that demerit stays on your your insurance for like seven to 10 years. You know what I mean email penalties are, they're very bad, but they they're shorter, they're more transient. The same thing, and often, oftentimes, the the, you know, the thing that's keeping you in the penalty box for deliverability purposes is that you just have a, you know, high spam complaint rate, as measured by, you know, how many spam complaints did you get in the last 24 hours, or something this, like, according to Gmail or something, and it's remarkably easy to to to rectify the situation. It's just stop using whatever product you're using that is giving you a 95% rate and just, you know, stop emailing those and see what happens. And if the spam, you know, logically, if you stop sending them like that, that should meaningfully reduce the the spam complaints and. And in fact, that was one of the metrics that we looked at where, you know, if you're sending emails from customers, AI like that we identified, versus other vendors like we saw, like, a reduction in spam complaints by three times. You know, that's a meaningful percentage reduction of spam complaints. It's not like you can't get any spam complaints. They just want it to be below point 3% so the recommendation would just be to stop using the product and see what that does to your kind of postmaster tool delivery scores. And my guess is that it would improve. And then the next thing I would advocate for is just because, you know one vendor is screwing you, it doesn't mean they all are. I would try to get a handle on other other vendors in the space and see what their accuracy is, especially if they have ways to help you quantify the error. Yep,
Mariah Parsons 20:57
that. So email deliverability, that makes sense. You can kind of rectify, you can recover it. I know there's also a lot of agencies who work in email deliverability, making sure that it's, you know, everything is tip top shape, and that you're not getting constant spam, not requests. What's the word I'm looking for anyway? Complaints, complaints. Thank you. Yes. And then I think the harder thing is, if it damages your brand's reputation, right, like, of it starts to be something on the internet where people are, you know, upset about it, or social media, you know, brand brand safety, or, like, not buying with you because you pissed off certain people, all that certain all that stuff. So do you think that's really an issue or not as much as, like, the more technical side of email deliverability. Um,
Larry Kim 21:44
you know, often these things go hand in hand, like the use of these products deteriorates email deliverability, and so it's kind of weird, in a weird way, like these wrong emails that you're sending, they have low visibility, so they'll just end up in spam. So, you know, it's certainly possible that that could be causing brand issues. You know, it's quite pernicious. It's like it compounds. It's not like it will destroy your brand instantaneously, but rather, it's like just eating something really bad, like toxic waste, but in small quantities, you know, every day for, you know, day after day after day, you know, eventually you'll get sick. And I think you know, in terms of mitigating that kind of damage, I think it's, you know, you have to be thinking long term, not not just short term, and then just thinking about, like, holistically, about the whole channel. And what you should be doing here. Are there certainly, certainly ways to kind of have your cake and eat it too, where you can have the advantage of of emailing people that haven't opted in, but minimizing the error, like you could, for example, right? You could set, instead of sending them an email, you could send that those emails into a Facebook remarketing campaign, and then if one of those people who you sent into the Facebook remarketing me and clicks on a Facebook ad and comes back at that point. You could email them You said something like, you could put some kind of a bar that they need to cross of engagement or intent before, before emailing them. Or you could set some delays, like, you know, three pages viewed and two minutes on site. Just trying to make it like, if we're going to email these people, let it be for people where the commercial intent is high and they're likely to appreciate a follow up, as opposed to be resentful for it. So
Mariah Parsons 23:34
yeah, I think that's a great point to kind of add that, like barrier of entry, basically, of before we email, you see how you're interacting with our brand. And that actually brings up a great point, because legally speaking, so like on the Malomo side of things with branded order tracking, we're in the transactional email space, right? So there's more regulations around transactional emails. There obviously has to have a transaction that occurred, and those emails are extremely important, because people want to know, you know, I spent my money on this. Where's the order? But on the marketing side of things, obviously you have to have someone opt into your email. So that's, I guess, in my head, where I'm, like, as a consumer. How is that and like, I know, buying the data and getting all of like permission somewhere in there. Like permission was given somewhere along the way to market to them. But can you explain that a little bit more in depth, because I like that, to me, is like, okay, that's where the, I guess a little bit of worry on the brand side would come into play, of, okay, I'm emailing a bunch of these people, let's just say, like, they're all correct, just for this use case. And then people being like, how did you get my email? You never signed up for your email. I didn't opt in. Is there, like any legal issues there,
Larry Kim 24:41
there's certainly various legal structures that you as a marketer or brand you know, Brand Manager need to understand. The law of the land for United States of America is at a federal level, I can't spam. And that's a, you know, almost 20 year old piece of legislation. It only. Has six stipulations. It's like, you have to clearly identify who's sending the email. You have to include the mailing address and contact information of who's you know, of the sender. The most important thing is you have to be provide a simple way to opt out of receiving emails, and you have to process and honor those opt outs in a timely way, that's can't spam sounds like something about like. It almost sounds like something related to requiring some kind of opt in or something. But it's really about clear identification of who's sending the email and providing a mechanism for like. I can explain why that is. It's because it's United States of America, and they have the First Amendment, so the government should not pass any law that in any way restricts the rights of free speech. There are. So that's pretty straightforward. The answer is to, like, if somebody unsubscribes or, you know, requests to opt out, you need to honor that immediately, and not, like, make it difficult for them to get on it. Okay. In fact, it's a gift. Like, if somebody tells you that they're not interested, like, that's so much better than having them register a complaint with Gmail, which counts against you as a strike. Okay? So emphatically, yes, you should do this. And we require that our customers do this. There are other laws in the United States like and other state specific things, and I would describe those laws as being a little bit more kind of personality around the areas, of being able to opt out of the network or to be able to see what information that they have on you. So like this is these are all important things for sure, but it doesn't make anything we're doing illegal. Basically, in general, the antidote to a lot of this regulation is disclosure. So in some websites will they're pretty in your face about it, like, they'll pop up a thing that says, like, you know, this website is using marketing trackers, like, it'll make you accept or reject those terms. So that's kind of a more in your face, kind of disclosure. And minimum, the website should disclose the use of marketing trackers in the website Terms of Use. It has to do with, like, being transparent about the use of this technology and not just, like, secretly using it and not telling anyone. Yeah, once you say you're using it and you say what it is and that it's optional, you can opt out of it. That inoculates most of the regulations.
Mariah Parsons 27:22
Okay, yeah, that all makes sense. And that's, that's the, you know, from the seat that I sit in, where it's like, okay, you know, the general things. But then when you're actually in a technology that uses that, or you're sitting in that same, like band of technology, where it's like, okay, we really gotta know what is, you know, what? How we can use that data to do what we're trying to do. It's, it is very interesting to have you kind of walk through it all, and I'm gonna round us out here in a few minutes for this episode. But is there anything else in that report that you know, you haven't gotten to share that is kind of like a heads up to brands or like brands, you should consider looking into this if you're experiencing XYZ challenges. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our audience here today,
Larry Kim 28:08
just that, if you're using this kind of visitor ID tech, and if you don't know what the accuracy is, you know, because they don't typically advertise it, it's like a black box. There are ways to get insights into the accuracy or lack of accuracy of that data, and we'd love to work with you to kind of uncover
Mariah Parsons 28:29
what's in there. Okay, awesome. Love it. Well, thank you, Larry, this has been great having you on the show, and I'm very excited for this episode to be live and for our audience to hear what you have to say and learn more about visitor identification, because it is, it is definitely a black box sometimes. So it's always fun to kind of unwind it a little bit more. Thanks. Thank you for listening to today's episode. These conversations bring so much knowledge to the table, and I'm so grateful for that. If you haven't already, please subscribe, follow us on social media and tell us who our next guest should be on our website. Let's give another shout out to our day one sponsor, Malomo. As you know, Malomo is an order tracking platform that enables Shopify brands to take control of their transactional email and SMS through branded order tracking pages. That means you can ditch those boring, all white carrier pages, you know, the ones I'm talking about. Everyone has seen an ugly tracking page in their life, and you can swap it with a page that matches your brand. Customers like you and I obsessively check order tracking an average of 4.6 times per order. That's why leading Shopify brands are turning that engagement into customer loyalty and revenue through branded order tracking. Learn more about how to get ahead of shipping issues. Brand your order tracking experience and reconvert customers while they wait for their package to arrive with Malomo. Visit go malomo.com that's g, O, M. A, l, o, M, o.com.
